Re: NANFA-L-- ID help

Bob Muller (michiganfish-in-wideopenwest.com)
Wed, 16 Aug 2006 23:12:32 -0400

It looked very similar to the blackchins I catch but blacknose have no black
below the mouth.

Bob Muller
----- Original Message -----
From: "Crail, Todd" <tcrail-in-UTNet.UToledo.Edu>
To: <nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 6:28 PM
Subject: RE: NANFA-L-- ID help

> Uland,
>
> Yepper, Notropis is tough. And they stinkin' croak on you while you're
trying
> to just learn.
>
> I think the easy key characteristic for a decently sized ironcolor
specimen is
> the dark coloration _all the way around_ the mouth. That's what has stood
out
> at me in each of the guides I've compared the two.
>
> The guide from the nice folks in Michigan comes in handy here:
>
> Ironcolor:
>
http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/spatialdatalibrary/pdf_maps/fish_atlas/illustrati
o
> ns/notcha.pdf
>
> Weed:
>
http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/spatialdatalibrary/pdf_maps/fish_atlas/illustrati
o
> ns/nottex.pdf
>
> The main page is found at:
> http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/1,1607,7-153-10371_14793-30538--,00.html
>
> You will find a great deal of overlap in Illinois.
>
> In your situation you may also have blackchin and blacknose shiner
involved.
> They will both have black around the mouth, but the mouth is very oblique,
or
> straight up and down vs straight back, as found in the ironcolor and weed
> shiners.
>
> Blackchin:
>
http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/spatialdatalibrary/pdf_maps/fish_atlas/illustrati
o
> ns/notheterod.pdf
>
> Blacknose:
>
http://www.dnr.state.mi.us/spatialdatalibrary/pdf_maps/fish_atlas/illustrati
o
> ns/notheterol.pdf
>
> Also, Becker's Fishes of Wisconsin is available if you download their
reader.
> It's all free as well.
>
> http://www.seagrant.wisc.edu/greatlakesfish/becker.html
>
> Yeap. As a Pleistocene relict the size that it was, it probably had
cryptic
> species galore, as populations were totally disjunct for a dozen thousand
> years, not to mention the weird distribution of northern and southern
species.
> Pugnose, ironcolor, blackchin and blacknose would be some I'd say are
> candidates for genetic research. Hopefully the reclaimation efforts going
on
> will close some of those ditches. I'm not holding my breath though. "You
say
> you want to CLOSE a ditch? Boy, you crazy or somethin'?" :)
>
> Todd
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org on behalf of Uland Thomas
> Sent: Wed 8/16/2006 5:49 PM
> To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
> Subject: RE: NANFA-L-- ID help
>
>
>
> Thank you for your input Todd.
> I was worried you might say Ironcolor. I catch a similar Notropis in
many
> nearby ditches that have quite different color above the lateral stripe.
This
> fish is rather pale and has slightly silvery scales on it's side compared
to
> what I thought was Ironcolor shiners. The silvery reflections don't show
well
> in the photo I provided. What are the chances this is an Ironcolor and the
> "darker" shiner I find is a Weed shiner or vice versa? I'm having a hard
time
> figuring out which is weed shiner and which is Ironcolor without harming
the
> fish. I know it's silly but I want to know.
>
> The draining of the Grand marsh (1/2 million acres) about a 100 years
ago
> damaged what I could imagine to be beautiful wetland with quite an
interesting
> group of fish. Many still remain in the ditches that drained the marsh but
in
> much lower numbers hanging on for dear life.
>
> Thanks again,
> Uland
>
> "Crail, Todd" <tcrail-in-UTNet.UToledo.Edu> wrote:
> Uland,
>
> Looks like you caught a state threatened ironcolor shiner, Notropis
> chalybaeus.
>
> Of all the destroyed wetlands and connected terrestrial systems in this
> country... I'm under the impression that the Kankakee is the most criminal
of
> all, esp as late as the destruction occurred.
>
> Todd
> The Muddy Ditch Madness, Toledo, OH
> It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
> http://www.farmertodd.com <http://www.farmertodd.com/>
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: owner-nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org on behalf of Uland Thomas
> Sent: Wed 8/16/2006 4:11 PM
> To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
> Subject: NANFA-L-- ID help
>
>
>
> I caught and released this fish from Kankakee county Illinois from an area
> that was once a vast marsh. I have a guess, but wanted some possitive ID
help
> with this fish.
>
> http://imagesocket.com/view/unknown_shiner53d.jpg
>
> Thanks
>
> Uland
>
>
> Where the river flows backwards
> Next-gen email? Have it all with the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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>
> Where the river flows backwards
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail Beta.
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/ visit http://www.nanfa.org Please make sure all posts to nanfa-l are
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