RE: NANFA-L-- Re: Species questions

Crail, Todd (tcrail-in-UTNet.UToledo.Edu)
Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:05:12 -0500

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From: owner-nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org on behalf of Dave Neely
The geographic
breaks between these taxa are discrete, abrupt, and stunning - maybe if
you're a myopic color-blind human and can't distinguish between green,
black, and orange you might have a problem, but the fish seem to sort
themselves out just fine.

But Dave, are the fish really sorting anything out... Or an extremely =
cynical view... are we just creating more arbitrary lines so we can stay =
in the lab, continue publishing and call ourselves successful, without =
having once gone outside? <evil_grin>
=20
Now I'm just playing devil's advocate here, with zero intention to =
ruffle feathers. But really, what is a species these days? And has =
anyone made any kind of attempt-in-_breeding_ out across these clades to =
test if the geography holds up within the classic or even current =
definition of "species" after their revisionist descriptions are =
published? Would it be a real bugger if someone happened to collect =
both, randomly mix them, and then have the good Mr. Muller breed them =
out to F2's or F3's?
=20
I find it really hard to hold that there aren't "intergrades" or zero =
interaction in a single watershed inbetwix Ulocentrids (thus creating =
two separate species), no matter how different the geology is where =
they're found. Nor am I just ready to just drop it after pulling my =
hair out over Catonotus, which should have been pretty straight forward =
:) =20
=20
I mean really, I spent three days last week standing somewhere in =
between the edge of the basin, on the barrens, and-in-the base of the =
rim, and I'm not really sure where these "species" start and end, let =
alone where the physiogeography of these _streams_ starts and ends. I =
would like to think I'm pretty perceptive-in-these kinds of things (and =
I even knew where I was at! Like someone could do this out of a jar!), =
but I couldn't say for sure where one was and where another wasn't. I =
think it's fine that people are using genetics to attempt to describe =
these boundaries, but I'm still not sold on the whole idea, especially =
as the cast of characters emerges, and I get to note their field habits =
(or lack of, if you know what I mean ;)
=20
So perhaps you (or anyone) could shed some light on this Ulocentra =
question (since it is so clear), using the Duck River clade as an =
example? It sounds like we have simoterum - simoterum cf. - duryi, =
maybe more?
=20
How does this work?
=20
Okay... Back to learning "Marsh, swamp, fen, bog... All pretty much the =
same thing." =20
=20
Aiye aiye aiye. I wish people would make up their mind if they're gonna =
lump or split lol. =20
=20
Thanks! :)
Todd
The Muddy Maumee Madness, Toledo, OH
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
http://www.farmertodd.com
=20

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charset=3Diso-8859-1">=0A=
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">=0A=
=0A= =0A= =0A= 6.5.7226.0">=0A= NANFA-L-- Re: Ulocentra questions=0A= =0A= =0A=

=0A=
From: = owner-nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org on =0A= behalf of Dave Neely
The geographic
breaks = between =0A= these taxa are discrete, abrupt, and stunning - maybe if
you're a = myopic =0A= color-blind human and can't distinguish between green,
black, and = orange you =0A= might have a problem, but the fish seem to sort
themselves out just =0A= fine.
=0A=
But Dave, are the fish really = sorting =0A= anything out...  Or an extremely cynical view... are we = just =0A= creating more arbitrary lines so we can stay in the lab, continue =0A= publishing and call ourselves successful, without having once gone =0A= outside?  <evil_grin>
=0A=
 
=0A=
Now I'm just playing devil's = advocate here, =0A= with zero intention to ruffle feathers. But really, what is a = species =0A= these days?  And has anyone made any kind of attempt-in-_breeding_ = out =0A= across these clades to test if the geography holds up within the = classic or =0A= even current definition of "species" after their revisionist = descriptions =0A= are published?   Would it be a real bugger if someone happened = to =0A= collect both, randomly mix them, and then have the good Mr. Muller breed = them =0A= out to F2's or F3's?
=0A=
 
=0A=
I find it really hard to hold = that there =0A= aren't "intergrades" or zero interaction in a single watershed inbetwix =0A= Ulocentrids (thus creating two separate species), no matter how = different the =0A= geology is where they're found.  Nor am I just ready to just drop = it after =0A= pulling my hair out over Catonotus, which should have been pretty = straight =0A= forward :) 
=0A=
 
=0A=
I mean really, I spent three = days last week =0A= standing somewhere in between the edge of the basin, on the barrens, and = at the =0A= base of the rim, and I'm not really sure where these "species" start and = end, =0A= let alone where the physiogeography of these _streams_ starts and =0A= ends.  I would like to think I'm pretty perceptive-in-these kinds = of things =0A= (and I even knew where I was at!  Like someone could do this out of = a =0A= jar!), but I couldn't say for sure where one was and where another = wasn't.  =0A= I think it's fine that people are using genetics to attempt to describe = these =0A= boundaries, but I'm still not sold on the whole idea, especially as the = cast of =0A= characters emerges, and I get to note their field habits (or lack of, if = you =0A= know what I mean ;)
=0A=
 
=0A=
So perhaps you (or = anyone) could shed =0A= some light on this Ulocentra question (since it is so clear), using the = Duck =0A= River clade as an example?  It sounds like we have simoterum - = simoterum =0A= cf. - duryi, maybe more?
=0A=
 
=0A=
How does this = work?
=0A=
 
=0A=
Okay... Back to learning = "Marsh, swamp, =0A= fen, bog... All pretty much the same thing." 
=0A=
 
=0A=
Aiye aiye aiye.  I wish = people would =0A= make up their mind if they're gonna lump or split  lol.  =
=0A=
 
=0A=
Thanks!  :)
=0A=
Todd
=0A=
The Muddy Maumee Madness, = Toledo, =0A= OH
=0A=
It's never too late to have a = happy =0A= childhood.
=0A=
http://www.farmertodd.com=0A=
 
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