RE: NANFA-L-- Mud sunfish Sacramento Perch

Mike Bessert (mbesser1-in-bigred.unl.edu)
Mon, 6 Mar 2006 15:37:45 -0600

Bob -

I know two of those guys (Tom Near and Rick Mayden, that is). If you want
Tom's centrarchid paper but can't access it, let me know off list. In fact,
I think Tom subscribes to the NANFA list because I've seen him chime in
before. I'm sure he'd send you a PDF.

Mike

Michael L. Bessert
324 Manter Hall
School of Biological Sciences
University of Nebraska
Lincoln, NE 68588-0118
ph. 402-472-3999

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org [owner-nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org] On Behalf Of
Michael Sandel
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2006 3:18 PM
To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- Mud sunfish Sacramento Perch

Sure thing, I should give credit where it is due though. The first author of
the Centrarchidae paper is Dr. Kevin Roe, who is now a malacologist in
Delaware. Dr. Richard Mayden was third author. Citation would be (Roe et al.
2002).

Here's the lab homepage.
http://bama.ua.edu/~pharris/lab/index.html
Here is where you can download the pdf.
http://bama.ua.edu/~pharris/lab/publications.html

Another centrarchid phylogeny was published in 2005 by Dr. Thomas Near et
al. from the University of Tennessee. The evolutionary relationships are not
significantly different in his paper, but they estimate the age of
divergence for some of the groups of sunfish, which could be interesting
information in your powerpoint. Not sure if his paper is online though.

Mike

Bob Bock <bockhouse-in-earthlink.net> wrote:
Michael, who is your advisor? Do you have a link to this work? I'd like to
cite him in my talk.

-----Original Message-----
>From: Michael Sandel
>Sent: Mar 6, 2006 11:19 AM
>To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
>Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- Mud sunfish Sacramento Perch
>
>My advisor published a molecular phylogeny (tree of life) on Centrarchidae
in 2002.
> Traditionally, both of these species have been considered basal
(ancestral) to most other sunfishes (Lepomis, Micropterus etc). According to
molecular data, the mud sunfish is the living "relic" of the group, basal to
all other sunfishes. You are correct about the mud sunfish having unique
scales, but they are cycloid. All other centrarchids have ctenoid scales.
Normally, folks interpret cycloid scales to be the primitive type. I am not
familiar with Sacramento perch behavior, but if they don't build nests, I
would hypothesize this to be a recent behavioral modification. They are most
closely related to Crappies (Pomoxis) and Rock Bass (Archoplites). Let me
know if you are interested in where pygmy sunfish fit in all of this, we can
talk for hours.
>
> Mike
>
>Bob Bock wrote:
> As long as I'm asking questions--does anyone know if there have been any
recent discoveries on whether mud sunnies and/or Sacramento perch are living
relatives of a sunfish ancestor? Sacramento perch don't tend nests, and Mud
sunnies have ctenoid scales (although it's possible I guess that the ctenoid
scales might be a recent adaptation, reminiscent of an ancestral form of
scales.)
>
>Thanks, smart people.
>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Dustin Smith
>>Sent: Mar 6, 2006 10:23 AM
>>To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
>>Subject: RE: NANFA-L-- sunnies v. cichlids was tree of life
>>
>>It's the family of fish that now comprises the sea basses.
>>
>>
>>
>>Dustin Smith
>>Lexington, SC
>>At the convergence of the Broad, Saluda and Congaree
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>----Original Message Follows----
>>From: Bob Bock
>>Reply-To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
>>To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
>>Subject: RE: NANFA-L-- sunnies v. cichlids was tree of life
>>Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 10:03:37 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>>
>>Thanks, Bruce. What's a serranid?
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Bruce Stallsmith
>> >Sent: Mar 6, 2006 9:59 AM
>> >To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
>> >Subject: RE: NANFA-L-- sunnies v. cichlids was tree of life
>> >
>> >To be even more precise beyond Dustin's accurate statements, fossil
>>evidence
>> >suggests that the nearest relative of modern centrarchids was an
>>anadromous
>> >serranid that became a North American freshwater fish about 70 million
>>years
>> >ago. So centrarchids are a relatively isolated group phylogenetically.
>> >
>> >--Bruce Stallsmith
>> >along that centrarchid heaven, the Tennessee
>> >Huntsville, AL, US of A
>> >
>> >>From: Bob Bock
>> >>Reply-To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
>> >>To: nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org
>> >>Subject: RE: NANFA-L-- sunnies v. cichlids was tree of life
>> >>Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2006 09:54:04 -0500 (GMT-05:00)
>> >>
>> >>This is such a great list. You can find someone knowledgeable enough to
>> >>answer just about anything.
>> >>
>> >>Thanks, Dustin!
>> >/-----------------------------------------------------------------------
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