RE: NANFA-- now genetic diverstiy-Collecting ethics

Nick Zarlinga (njz_at_clevelandmetroparks.com)
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 19:01:05 -0500

I would agree with you that many species have been able to overcome
population bottlenecks, especially fish and amphibs. However is this really
the best way of trying to preserve a species? I have to believe that there
are also examples where a bottleneck does not benefit a species. Also, just
because you can get a herd of animals from a few founders does not ensure
the survival of the species. There are many genetic defects which can come
out in later generations and as already described, the loss of "wild type"
behaviors can be devestating. Again, I maintain that we should let nature
take its course when possible. That means protecting the land. Harvesting
the animals should be done for the purpose of finding more about the natural
history of the animals for their conservation. You are right in that the
risk takers can take us further, however again, who should be the risk
takers? If we leave it up to the individual, there might just be too many
people who think they can hold the torch. This is undisciplined and
irresponsible. Those that have demonstrated success with a surrogate
species are obviously better qualified than just anyone saying, "jeez, that
is a neet animal, I think I would like to try breeding it." I am sorry, but
I do not think that just anyone should be allowed to "cut their teeth on a
species that is declining. For a species such as hellbenders, their
requirements are generally more than the average person can accomodate, that
is why you had better be damned good before I feel that it is ethical for
just anyone to keep them, let alone try to breed them. It is possible for
private individuals to work in conjunction with established institutions to
further the knowledge of the species. If anything, most institutions are
will to take volunteers.

Nick Zarlinga
Aquarium Biologist
Cleveland Metroparks Zoo
216.661.6500 ext 4485

><)> -----Original Message-----
><)> From: owner-nanfa_at_aquaria.net
><)> On Behalf
><)> Of Steffen Hellner
><)> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:05 AM
><)> To: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
><)> Subject: Re: NANFA-- Collecting ethics
><)>
><)>
><)> >> <)> Still waiting for evidence that
><)> collecting of fish
><)> >> <)> or any other cold-blooded
><)> >> <)> animal has ever lead to extinction.
><)> >
><)> > This is where I think that the views on this
><)> topic are nearsighted. It is
><)> > not that it may lead to extiction, it is that it
><)> is not helping to preserve
><)> > the species by still allowing for unrestricted
><)> collection or possession.
><)> Didn4t speak of unrestricted collecting or
><)> possession. But today the
><)> alternatives are either "do what you want" or "its
><)> prohibited". That is were
><)> differentiation lacks.
><)>
><)> > You are reducing genetic diversity and therefore
><)> *possibly* weakening the
><)> > species as a whole.
><)> This is an argument as weak as all the stated
><)> thread by collecting. If
><)> nature and especially amphibians and fish were
><)> that sensitive to losses of
><)> "genetic diversity" by loss of single or few
><)> specimen there would have been
><)> no species development at all as we face it.
><)> Amphibians and fish are known
><)> to be very stable against inbreeding even when
><)> bred in genetic lines. Mostly
><)> every species can be inbred for many, many
><)> generations without affecting its
><)> health or prolificy. Even mammals als the white
><)> Ory antilope were based on
><)> just a dozen specimen left and have raised to
><)> herds of hundreds without
><)> significant problems. Or see the Bison. It must
><)> have been extirpated if
><)> genetic diversity was that narrow as you state it.
><)> With amphibians like
><)> hellbenders it is obviously even less problematic.
><)>
><)> > There is much that humans don't know about population
><)> > dynamics and that is why I vote for erring on
><)> the side of caution and not
><)> > allowing just anyone who thinks they know what
><)> they are doing to keep the
><)> > species. Unfortunately, it is reactive and not
><)> proactive, but that is a
><)> > whole other thread ;).
><)> I agree, we are just at start of knowing what is
><)> really going on. My point
><)> is that the cautionous survive but the risky
><)> people take us further. We can
><)> look at the species we have with tears in our eyes
><)> and see them die off and
><)> be aware we "were on the side of caution" or try
><)> to get into it by taking
><)> the "risk" of using a limited number for research.
><)> And the latter is being
><)> done now with hellbenders. And I am aware that our
><)> past behaviour has caused
><)> this reaction as we missed to be proactive for too
><)> long. Still time to
><)> change this. Mere conservatism will not work in
><)> the long run.
><)>
><)> As you proposed I suggest we close this thread as
><)> everything for now has
><)> been said. It was great, I like controvers
><)> discussions. Hope I didn4t upset
><)> anybody by my statements which just reflected my
><)> personal oppinion.
><)>
><)> Steffen
><)> ---------------------------
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