Re: NANFA--now NANFA type aquarist- Collecting ethics

John B (bongi_at_cox-internet.com)
Tue, 13 Jan 2004 22:14:26 -0600

Those students however are shopping for a graduate professor that will
do just that. Allow them to do the work. As undergrads they have
discovered an interest in a certain field or endeavor. They will then go
seek out a professor that has a program in place that meets the
graduate's education goals. And they get paid for it in one sense or
another. In laymans terms its OJT or on the job training. Its no
different than any other occupation. Managers, either correctly or
incorrectly, assign work and expect it to be performed according to
prescribed protocols and standards. How else you gonna learn? To imply
that something sinister or less sincere is going on here in the practice
of science that isn't going on in any other industry is just ludicrous.
This practice often allows students to be self directed and creative as
well. A graduate degree in the sciences is very much different that a
graduate degree in other disciples such as business.

In the spectrum of life there are the extremes and all the different
shades in between. The spectrum exists for hobbyists, biologists,
environmentalists, economists, laborists, and all the other "ists".
Please, all, lets stop generalizing accept that there are extremely
talented and ethical folks as well as bad folk as hunters, biologists,
hobbyists, etc. Unethical practice is unethical practice regardless of
who is doing the work. As far as what is ethical.... I would refer
back to the NANFA guidelines, paraphrasing, essentially, abide by the
law, take only what you need (not what you want) and leave as small a
footprint as possible.

This whole discussion illustrates to me the reason why improving the
environment is so very difficult. Every bit of progress has to be
fought for by tooth and scale. This group is obviously conservation
minded but we can't even agree upon what is a threatened or Species of
Concern and whether it is ok to collect it! Imagine what has to go on
between big business, government agencies and the environmental groups
where the interests are much more separated!

John


Stan Perkins wrote:

>Nick,
>I have to disagree with you on one point of your statement when dealing with
>profesionals and who gets the cookie! The pro with the best pr agent, the
>pro with the best chance of getting grant money, or the pro with the best
>contacts with state/federal biologists are the ones who win most of the
>time! What do they do - turn the work over to a couple of inexperienced
>graduate students!
>
>Stan Perkins
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Nick Zarlinga" <njz_at_clevelandmetroparks.com>
>To: <nanfa_at_aquaria.net>
>Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 5:43 PM
>Subject: RE: NANFA--now NANFA type aquarist- Collecting ethics
>
>
>
>
>>Steffen, your post below illustrates my point. There are hobbyists, then
>>there are exceptional hobbyists. I have to believe that you would agree
>>with me that of the millions of fish enthusiasts out there, that there are
>>
>>
>a
>
>
>>relative handful that would be considered exceptional. Of course the
>>biggest problem is how do you determine that a hobbyist is *exceptional
>>enough* to be responsible enough to keep a declining species-as measured
>>
>>
>by
>
>
>>the good of the species. At least in the professional world, it is
>>
>>
>usually
>
>
>>peer reviewed and often in the public eye. This leads the learning in the
>>right direction. If just anyone were allowed to have these species, there
>>would be no consequences to encourage that forward growth in knowledge.
>>
>>
>>As was effectively pointed out already, we all started as hobbyists. Some
>>of us are lucky enough to get paid for it.
>>
>>Nick Zarlinga
>>Aquarium Biologist
>>Cleveland Metroparks Zoo
>>216.661.6500 ext 4485
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>><)> -----Original Message-----
>>><)> From: owner-nanfa_at_aquaria.net
>>><)> On Behalf
>>><)> Of Steffen Hellner
>>><)> Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 10:52 AM
>>><)> To: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
>>><)> Subject: Re: NANFA-- Collecting ethics
>>><)>
>>><)>
>>><)> man, you4re terribly right in many aspects.
>>><)>
>>><)>
>>><)> > Measuring the passion quotient is easy. Look at
>>><)> the huge number of
>>><)> > hobbyists in the world and you tell me how many
>>><)> have the incling that
>>><)> > tropical fish actually come from a real place!
>>><)> This is what makes me sad often. But there are
>>><)> many left still who know and
>>><)> can contribute. The mass however is just consumers.
>>><)>
>>><)> > Rember the thread about how people are told that
>>><)> you have to boil your
>>><)> > driftwood and rocks before you put them in your aquarium?
>>><)> I am fighting this nonsense ever since! There is
>>><)> another article in
>>><)> preparation upon water conditions and what they
>>><)> really mean to our fish,
>>><)> what is neccessary and what is obsolet.
>>><)>
>>><)> > And hobbyists have a tendency to keep their
>>><)> aquariums sparkling
>>><)> > clean. No algae and no detritus is how fish are
>>><)> supposed to be kept? As
>>><)> if
>>><)> > these fish are never exposed to mud, pathogens,
>>><)> or algae in their natural
>>><)> > environment.
>>><)> Again, the consumers, yes. It is our task to steer
>>><)> against this by any means
>>><)> we have. The pet industry is really bad in this concern.
>>><)>
>>><)> > Hobbyists don't think of where there fish come
>>><)> from, they just
>>><)> > think of them in the tank. Again, this is shear
>>><)> numbers alone. The exact
>>><)> > opposite thinking is what endeared me to NANFA.
>>><)> A group of hobbyists who
>>><)> > are really in tune with their animals *and* the
>>><)> natural environments where
>>><)> > they come from. We can have intelligent debates
>>><)> about all these topics.
>>><)> > But I don't believe that you can tell me that
>>><)> the percentage of hobbyists
>>><)> in
>>><)> > this country who have a serious passion about
>>><)> their animals is the same as
>>><)> > in the professional world. Again its all about
>>><)> numbers. And we all b*tch
>>><)> > about the "average" hobbyist on this list server.
>>><)> I was and am only speaking of NANFA-like type of
>>><)> aquarists, not the
>>><)> platy-keepers with a bunch of everything in their
>>><)> tanks. Those won4t even
>>><)> think about collecting in the field. Another
>>><)> example: When I received my
>>><)> SRBD, northern studfish, and three species of
>>><)> darters in March 2003 the
>>><)> veterinarian at the airport asked me how many
>>><)> species were in the box. I
>>><)> said five. She became intense (not to say angry)
>>><)> and shouted: No, it4s all
>>><)> one species! Gee, she wasn4t able to tell perch
>>><)> from carpfish! And she is
>>><)> responsible for wildlife protection by controlling
>>><)> imports and exports. It4s
>>><)> good to know that these people are so
>>><)> professionell and packed with
>>><)> knowledge. And this person is not an exception but
>>><)> the average. Any other
>>><)> experiences are welcome.
>>><)>
>>><)> Steffen
>>><)> ---------------------------
>>><)> /"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this
>>><)> list do not necessarily
>>><)> / reflect the beliefs or goals of the North
>>><)> American Native Fishes
>>><)> / Association"
>>><)> / This is the discussion list of the North
>>><)> American Native Fishes Association
>>><)> / nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or
>>><)> get help, send the word
>>><)> / subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not
>>><)> subject) of an email to
>>><)> / nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version,
>>><)> send the command to
>>><)> / nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead.
>>><)> / For more information about NANFA, visit our web
>>><)> page, http://www.nanfa.org
>>>
>>>
>--
>
>
>>/"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
>>/ reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
>>/ Association"
>>/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes
>>
>>
>Association
>
>
>>/ nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
>>/ subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
>>/ nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
>>/ nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead.
>>/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page,
>>
>>
>http://www.nanfa.org
>/"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
>/ reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
>/ Association"
>/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association
>/ nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
>/ subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
>/ nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
>/ nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead.
>/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
/"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
/ reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
/ Association"
/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association
/ nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
/ subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
/ nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
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/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org