Bob Muller
Red Run (the ghost river of Royal Oak)
A tributary of the Clinton River
Great Lakes Watershed
----- Original Message -----
From: <dlmcneely-in-lunet.edu>
To: <nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org>
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 6:29 PM
Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- mudminnow fry
> First, I have never looked-in-a larval, or even adult, mudminnow caudal
> fin closely, so this will be somewhat speculative.
>
> In all bony fishes, the terminal vertebra has an extension called the
> urostyle. In most fishes, this urostyle continues the vertebral column
> along the dorsal edge of the caudal fin, though it is not prominant
> (and indeed is substantially shorter than the lobe itself) in those
> with a homocercal (equal lobed) tail. In gars, and most others with a
> heterocercal tail, this urostyle is quite long as it extends to near
> the end of the dorsal lobe of the caudal fin. The caudal fin membrane
> is supported by rays that are in turn supported by bones called
> hypurals (fused in many into a nearly solid "hypural plate"). These
> are the elongated and flattened haemal (ventral) spines of the last
> vertebra. There are also epurals, dorsal to the position of the
> urostyle, and formed from the neural (dorsal) spines of the last
> vertebra. This anatomy may be seen on page 30 of my 1st edition of
> Helfman, Collette, and Facey. In most fishes, these epurals make
> little contribution to caudal fin support, and indeed, the original fin
> membrane dorsal to the urostyle is resorbed as the fin ventral to the
> urostyle develops rays, enlarges, and becomes both lobes of the caudal
> fin supported by the hypurals. So, perhaps in your mudminnow fry, you
> are seeing the remnants of the embryonic fin above the urostyle, not
> yet resorbed, and the structure you see as a "spike" is probably the
> urostyle extending directly posteriorly-in-this stage, rather than
> angling up as is it does in most older fishes. The rays developing
> ventral to the urostyle are the beginnings of both dorsal and ventral
> lobes of the adult caudal fin.
>
> Remember, I have not seen a juvenile mudminnow develop its caudal fin --
> this is based on general developmental features of the caudal fin of
> fishes.
>
> Dave
>
> David L. McNeely, Ph.D., Professor of Biology
> Langston University; P.O. Box 1500
> Langston, OK 73050; email: dlmcneely-in-lunet.edu
> telephone: (405) 466-6025; fax: 405) 466-3307
> home page http://www.lunet.edu/mcneely/index.htm
>
> "Where are we going?" "I don't know, are we there yet?"
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Bob Muller <michiganfish-in-wideopenwest.com>
> Date: Friday, May 13, 2005 3:26 pm
> Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- mudminnow fry
>
> > That was the first impression but mudminnows are not from the
> > group that
> > have the back bone going into the upper tail lobe. I put the fish
> > under my
> > microscope to look-in-the tail. On larva fish the dorsal, tail
> > and anal fin
> > start out as a fleshy membrane that wraps around the end of the
> > fish and
> > then divide and get fin rays. On the mudminnow the back bone is
> > like a
> > spike sticking beyond the tail fin. The lower tail fin is getting
> > rays but
> > the upper still looks like a membrane. Can any of the
> > ichthyologists tell
> > me what I am seeing.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <psalm119.111-in-juno.com>
> > To: <nanfa-l-in-nanfa.org>
> > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2005 12:53 PM
> > Subject: RE: NANFA-L-- mudminnow fry
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Bob,
> > > Is it like the tail fin of a young longnose gar?
> > > Mike Lucas
> > >
> > > ___________________________________________________________________
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/ reflect the beliefs or goals of NANFA. For more information about NANFA,
/ visit http://www.nanfa.org Please make sure all posts to nanfa-l are
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