Re: NANFA-L-- plants and soil


Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- plants and soil
From: njz (njz at clevelandmetroparks.com)
Date: Fri Oct 01 2004 - 08:51:31 CDT


><)> I never rinsed that brine. There were plenty of
><)> organics. They were fixed
><)> quickly, but they were still there. The 75 gallon
><)> did not have a protein
><)> skimmer. Any excess organics were dealt by the system.
><)>

OK then, how's this for a scientific answer.... there is something about
plant organics that are different that frozen animal juice ;)? Really now,
I think that there is a difference in the organics here. We are talking
about tannins vs other organics and the constant presence of the source in
the confined volume of water, constantly leaching. Feeding brine shrimp
periodically in my opinion is a different issue all together. I don't
believe that it is going to chance the color of your water like the tannins
in the wood
does. Over time, yes, due to nitrification and such, but again, different
than the tannins. Furthermore, I suspect that you have looked at a 55K bulb
next to a 65K bulb next to others? Not only is there a difference between
the color temp, but also between different manufacturers of each K. My 180
I had set up had 3- 175 watt halides. I put 55K in one, 65K in another and
a 10K in the third just to see the effect. I can not tell you the
difference between the 55 and 65 alone. Both looked rather yellow.

><)> I'm not sure I'm down with this. If I put the
><)> water into a white bucket,
><)> take it outside and look at it in sunlight, it's
><)> still yellow brown. Or
><)> under the flouresents in the laundry room, or if I
><)> poured it into one of my
><)> bluish daylight other flourescent tanks. I don't
><)> think the physical
><)> spectrum of the light has anything to do with it
><)> (especially when the
><)> perceived spectrum is white light). I think it
><)> has everything to do with
><)> the fact that I put some Malaysian hardwood in
><)> some water and it has organic
><)> properties that's going to leach, bleach, etc for
><)> a while.

Were you a reefer before the new color temp bulbs came out? Back then we
used the standard 43K bulbs and boy did that make everything look yellow.
Not to bring the debate back from the dead, but a classic example of this
are systems with algae scrubbers. Things are a bit different these days,
however when the limited color temp bulbs were around, the scrubber systems
looked very yellow. The algae was releasing compounds in the water which
were enhanced by the metal halide lighting. I can almost guarantee you that
if you put a higher Kelvin bulb on your tank, you would see an incredible
difference. Again, not saying that your water itself is not yellow, but the
spectral distribution of a 55K does have peaks in that green/yellow/orange
550 to 600 nm range. Check this graph out:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/faculty/s/b/sbj4/aquarium/ballast%20comparison/I
mage7.gif

When the light hits the organics in the water, it reflects back these
wavelengths, which are the most visible to our eyes. Try putting a couple
of shoplights over your tank and see what the difference is. If you have
cool whites, it should be even yellower, compared to a couple of actinic
days or aquasuns.

> ><)> I have not tested the phosphates. I doubt they
> ><)> would be detectable in the
> ><)> system, but I don't know that we'll ever know
> ><)> because I'm not interested
> ><)> enough to pay for a phosphate test kit :) If I
> ><)> had a problem, I might...
> ><)> But I just don't see that happening.

Why would you think that phosphates would not be detectable in your system?
Here in Cleveland, we put 1ppm of Sodium Metaphosphate in to the tap to
counteract the lead solder joints. Not sure what you guys do, however even
if you don't, I'd be curious to know what the soil is leaching into the
water. I am sure that there are lots of fertilizers bound up in there.
Sounds like it is not an issue though, even if it is.

Nick Zarlinga
Aquarium Biologist
Cleveland Metroparks Zoo
216.661.6500 ext 4485
> ><)> -----Original Message-----
> ><)> From: owner-nanfa-l at nanfa.org
> ><)>
> ><)> Of Todd Crail
> ><)> Sent: Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:29 AM
> ><)> To: nanfa-l at nanfa.org
> ><)> Subject: Re: NANFA-L-- plants and soil
> ><)>
> ><)>
> ><)> ----- Original Message -----
> ><)> From: "njz" <njz at clevelandmetroparks.com>
> ><)>
> ><)> >I have no doubt that your wood is adding color to
> ><)> your water, but I do
> ><)> > believe that it is exaserbated by the 55K bulbs.
> ><)> Your reef tank had
> ><)> > nothing
> ><)> > to leach out tannins into the water, since it
> ><)> was relatively algae free.
> ><)>
> ><)> It didn't?
> ><)> http://www.farmertodd.com/presentation/feeding/1.htm
> ><)>
> ><)> I never rinsed that brine. There were plenty of
> ><)> organics. They were fixed
> ><)> quickly, but they were still there. The 75 gallon
> ><)> did not have a protein
> ><)> skimmer. Any excess organics were dealt by the system.
> ><)>
> ><)> > What I am getting at is that the 55's are not
> ><)> helping your tannin
> ><)> > situation.
> ><)>
> ><)> I'm not sure I'm down with this. If I put the
> ><)> water into a white bucket,
> ><)> take it outside and look at it in sunlight, it's
> ><)> still yellow brown. Or
> ><)> under the flouresents in the laundry room, or if I
> ><)> poured it into one of my
> ><)> bluish daylight other flourescent tanks. I don't
> ><)> think the physical
> ><)> spectrum of the light has anything to do with it
> ><)> (especially when the
> ><)> perceived spectrum is white light). I think it
> ><)> has everything to do with
> ><)> the fact that I put some Malaysian hardwood in
> ><)> some water and it has organic
> ><)> properties that's going to leach, bleach, etc for
> ><)> a while. Or as Jim said,
> ><)> for a long while :)
> ><)>
> ><)> > Carbon will of course do wonders for the color, and you
> ><)> > may have to keep it in for a while.
> ><)>
> ><)> I could do this, but it costs money too. I'd
> ><)> rather waterchange every three
> ><)> weeks instead.
> ><)>
> ><)> > Have you tested phosphates at all with the use
> ><)> of the soil? Any signs of
> ><)> > cyano?
> ><)>
> ><)> I have not tested the phosphates. I doubt they
> ><)> would be detectable in the
> ><)> system, but I don't know that we'll ever know
> ><)> because I'm not interested
> ><)> enough to pay for a phosphate test kit :) If I
> ><)> had a problem, I might...
> ><)> But I just don't see that happening.
> ><)>
> ><)> What I can tell you is:
> ><)>
> ><)> - There isn't a single splatter of cyano anywhere.
> ><)> Even where detritus
> ><)> accumulates and those cool little worms in the
> ><)> upper lay of sand eat on it.
> ><)> - Hydroids obscure the view on the glass far worse
> ><)> than algae.
> ><)> - Plants that were previously heavily parasitized
> ><)> by filamentous algaes are
> ><)> regaining their allelopathic abilities and chasing it off.
> ><)> - New shoots and leaves have zero algal parasites.
> ><)> - The system is being fed about 2 oz of food 5
> ><)> times a week at this point.
> ><)> Some food does make it overnight, and hasn't been
> ><)> a problem yet.
> ><)>
> ><)> Todd
> ><)> The Muddy Maumee Madness, Toledo, OH
> ><)> It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
> ><)> http://www.farmertodd.com
> ><)>
> ><)> /--------------------------------------------------
> ><)> ---------------------
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> ><)> American Native Fishes
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: Fri Dec 31 2004 - 11:27:36 CST