FYI, Jeff Ray is Rob Wood's Ph.D. student. Jeff is conducting the first
comprehensive genetics study of what we currently call the rainbow
darter. Give him a couple of more years and he'll be ready to give us
the 'truth' about this species complex. It's an exciting project, and
there are definitely a few new species that he will be describing.
(Jeff, I included some of the emails from this thread. Read them from
bottom to top).
And Todd, about your comment ....
"I'd always wondered how species that are typical in headwaters
do not radiate... Or maybe they are.. "
They have radiated / are radiating. The more we look, the more we
realize that many different headwater fishes, each currently recognized
as one wide-ranging & morphologically variable species, are actually a
complex of related species. Just give us some more time to get it all
figured out! There will be a few talks at DarterFest 2003 that will
discuss some of the works in progress.
Patrick Ceas
***************************
Bruce Stallsmith wrote:
Just to finish the thought about rainbow darter population genetics, the
group I referred to includes Ray, Wood and Simons from St. Louis Univ.
(first 2) and Univ. Minnesota (Simons). They sequenced the cytochrome b
gene of the mitochondrial DNA for comparative purposes. Various people
have claimed as many as five species in this "complex" but Ray et al.'s
work didn't support that.
In honor of that, chopped earthworms for everyone!
--Bruce Stallsmith
Huntsville, AL, US of A
*************************
Moontanman_at_aol.com wrote:
I've caught them in the stream that drains from Coonskin park in Charleston
W.Va., nasty stream if there ever was one
********************
Todd Crail wrote:
Very interesting. I guess if "sumpin' ain't broke.. no need to adapt" huh?
:)
What's even more interesting to me is the wide range of habitats I've found
them to be very successful. Of course, they're in all those fantastic
wooded, rocky streams around here. But the gene pool I took the specimens I
photograph are from the upper Olentangy River (which is refered to by
Buckeyes down 'round the Horseshoe as the "Old -n- Grungy") where a large
portion is full sun exposed, wide open, nasty, algae and cyano choked, God
forsaken, polluted to heck ditch for all practicle purposes.
I emerged with these particular specimens from a wooded rocky, riffly,
country stream, full of pride that I was going to educate Sarah's family on
what jewels they had living next door... And then someone said "Oh those?
Those are everywhere in town behind Grandpa's & Grandma's. We used to catch
'em in butterfly nets." which that locale is pretty much what I described
earlier. Sheesh. Guess I need to disappear over to ol' Carl & Ruth's next
visit ;)
And that the darters seem to have no problem with this... There *has* to be
some type of adaptation in there... There has to be! :)
********************
Bruce Stallsmith wrote:
Funny you should mention a pile of data on rainbow darters... I saw a
talk last summer at the ASIH meeting by a researcher who examined DNA
from a wideranging group of rainbow darter populations. There was very
little evidence of well-defined populations, i.e. the species seemed to
be very homogenous across its range. Personally, I would have expected
some kind of pattern to emerge, but no. Maybe other sequences would show
a different pattern. I forget the name of the guy who presented, I'll
try to find it tomorrow in my office.
--Bruce Stallsmith
Huntsville, AL, US of A
********************
Todd Crail wrote:
>Thanks Guys... That's the nicest thing anyone said to me today Josh. A true
>compliment :) And yeah Travis, that female is some lil' sweetie huh? :)
>
>I'd always wondered how species that are typical in headwaters do not
>radiate... Or maybe they are.. We're just not around long enough to watch
>it happen. I mean seriously, how could a rainbow darter in AL be expected
>to look anything like a rainbow darter in OH after 8000 years of
>reintroduction? And... That there probably are many rainbow darters in AL
>that still look just like the ones in OH because that behavior, body shape
>and color is what made them successful all the way back in the glacial
>front.
>
>Crazy stuff. I'm sure someone has a pile of data on that somewhere :)
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Bruce Stallsmith" <fundulus_at_hotmail.com>
>To: <nanfa_at_aquaria.net>
>Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 8:51 PM
>Subject: Re: NANFA-- mmmmmmm....
>
>
>
>
>>Nice shots, Todd. The variability of rainbow darters never ceases to amaze
>>me. I have two I collected in an upper fork of the Paint Rock River in AL
>>that are unlike both of your photos, and any others I've seen. Not wildly,
>>but just enough to make me think and make sure that they really ARE
>>rainbows. I hope to take a collecting group to this spot this June as part
>>of the 2003 Convention, so I can get a wider audience for this population
>>
>of
>
>
>>rainbows.
>>
>>--Bruce Stallsmith
>>Huntsville, AL, US of A
>/"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
>/ reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
>/ Association"
>/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association
>/ nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
>/ subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
>/ nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
>/ nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead.
>/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
/"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
/ reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
/ Association"
/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association
/ nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
/ subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
/ nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
/ nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead.
/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org