Re: NANFA-- Re: Pseudomonas auriginosa/Trouble With Turtles

John B (bongi-in-cox-internet.com)
Wed, 19 May 2004 22:42:07 -0500

http://www.clemson.edu/caah/MSP/farm_animal_training/farm_fish.htm

Jeffrey Fullerton wrote:

>This thread caught my eye while skimming thru one of the digests.
>
>Pesudomonas caused me some problems with my herp collection a decade
>ago. Several of my turtles came down with pneumonia one winter while
>hibernating in an outside pond. In the middle of January 1992 I noticed
>a subadult female wood turtle, Clemmys -sic Glyptemys insculpta was
>basking out of the water and it was barely above freezing!
>
>Despite the reputation of cold tollerance of this species this behavior
>was obviously abnormal so I brought her inside and warmed her up. The
>condition got worse, progressing from simple open-mouthed breathing to
>acute gasping and bubbling and the turtle died overnight.
>
>Second victim was a female spotted turtle but she recovered and lived a
>while though subject to chronic flairs of infection thru the summer.
>Eventually I opted for euthenasia because it seemed she was going to be
>a potential source of infection to healthy turtles. That decision in
>light of what I know now may have been flawed but-in-the time it seemed
>the only option.
>
>When my larger female wood turtle - "Greedy" a cherished pet-
>practically a family heirloom since she was caught as a young one in
>1979 came down with it- I opted to move her from my home in PA down to
>Maryland (I was stationed-in-Andrews AFB then) and was lucky enough to
>find a real vet-in-College Park Animal Hospital who actually knew
>something about taking care of reptiles. I also bough a really good book
>on bacterial diseases of reptiles. Greedy's O/P swab cultured positive
>for Pesudomonas auriginos- which really knocked my socks off because I
>had already known of it as a frequent source of nosicomial or hospital
>aquired infections in human patients. Since I worked in a hospital I
>wondered if I might have brought it home on the soles of my shoes or
>something.
>
>I did trace the chain of infection back- to a female Southern Painted
>Turtle I bought in a Virginia petshop in the spring of 1990. She had
>been acting a bit funny just before she died suddenly a month or so
>after I introduced her to the community enclosure I had for aquatic
>turtles-in-my home in PA. I have since learned that an aquatic turtle
>that remains on the basking spot in the evening long after all the
>others have slipped back into the water is a sign of trouble. Sick
>reptiles often try to spend more time basking - thermoregulation - like
>we hot blooded creatures spike fevers to fight infections. The same
>thing happened with the adult male red-ear slider from the feral
>population established in the lake on Andrews. Common denominator was
>probably that these two animals were stressed- the female painted turtle
>from the pet trade and sudden move to a cooler climate without a decent
>oportunity to acclimate. The slider was more flighty than the spotted
>and painted turtles and may not have eaten well. It it commonplace for
>large collections to loose animals that way from time to time and most
>cases- which I am obviously guilty- it is chocked up to darwinian
>selection. Some animals are just don't make the transition to captive
>life well.
>
>Between my experience dealing with the vet and reading literature on
>reptilian diseases as well as human pathology I learned alot about
>Pesudomonas and quite a few other common infectious microbe species and
>the theories explaining their pathology. One especially dismal school of
>though held that reptiles were picking up human diseases and in the long
>run many species were essentially doomed. The other which not only
>appears more hopeful may be more likely to be true- that these organisms
>which are universal and oportunistic hit animals and people that are
>immunologically impaired- ie surgical patients, elderly and those with
>HIV or any kind of stress or malnutrition. That's certainly applicable
>to reptiles enduring the stress of crowding and improper husbandry
>between capture and the petshop- or animals in a captive situation that
>are low on the pecking order and are harrassed and inhibited from
>feeding by dominant cagemates.
>
>That year I downsized my collection and moved it to a cousin's property
>in Camp Springs so I could give my turtles more attention. When it was
>just Greedy and a couple box turtles - it was a simple matter to leave
>them in the care of my mother while I was in California. But when I
>transfered to Andrews in 88, the following season my collection started
>to grow. Other mistakes- I probably should not have mixed all these
>different species together- Spotted, painted, stinkpots and mud turtles,
>and red-eared sliders in the same pond / enclosure. Plus I was
>hibernating the wood turtles in there so I would not have to use an
>additional stock tank heater for their pond. The heater may have been a
>mistake too, since while it may have kept the shallow pond from freezing
>solid it may also have heated the water and kept the turtles more active
>than they ought to be and not active enough to resist opportunistic
>infections.
>And that gravel- nice fine stuff that all of us in the aquarium hobby
>would call "natural" gravel was probably a bad idea too. But it was
>availible and free for the taking by the bucket load from the base
>landfill. My guess was it was beeing used to make cement- you know the
>Air Force- spring for all the extras! I figured someday I'd want to add
>a couple softshells to the community and they'd need a substrate to
>burrow in. Plus it enhanced the natural look by hiding the pond liner.
>
>All this stuff added up to the ideal breeding ground for pathogens. I
>have since cleaned up my act and narrowed my focus to a smaller
>collection of species that I like and generally don't mix them together-
>other than the woods and native box turtles which share a spacious pen.
>The current colony of spotts which I raised from captive breed babies
>purchased-in-the Orlando Expo in 1993 got the original community pond
>all to themselves with a simple hygenic setup of a a few potted pond
>plants and island platforms made from plastic crates on a bare liner. I
>have discovered that simplicity is the best arrangement when it comes to
>maintaining anything. Roger Conant had wisdom when he said that a
>smaller collection of herps is probably better than a bigger one that
>can often overwhelm you. Also it's better to take care of it your self
>rather than deligate to someone else. Anyone can toss in food pellets
>but will they be keen enough to make sure everyone is getting a fair
>share and no one is being bullied or showing signs of illness.
>
>My other lessons are that it sometimes pays to hang in there. Greedy is
>still with me and has even produced a few broods of hatchlings since we
>returned to PA. Also I treated my turtles then with antibiotics which
>I'm wondering how much of their recovery was attributable to them and
>how much to the mere fact of the weather getting warmer which would
>boost the turtle's immune systems. My book "The Bacterial Diseases of
>Reptiles" also recommends "thermotherapy" - ie cranking up the heat (mid
>to high 80s for temperate herps- high 90s for tropicals) and keeping it
>there round the clock for a few weeks till signs of improvement are
>noted and then gradually return to optimal husbandry of the species.
>I've successfully treated pneumonia in turtles and snakes this way and
>recommend it as an alternative to antibiotics- many of which are
>becoming less effective because of overuse anyways. Not sure how this
>could apply to fish- though I'd hazzard to guess that warming up some
>species - esp tropicals or native species that like warm microhabitats
>like topminnows and sunfishes might respond in conjunction with salt or
>anti fungal treatments.
>
>I have noted alot of problems bringing fish back from Florida in the
>late fall when they are likely to be exposed to cooler temps on top of
>new strains of pathogens when they enter my tanks.
>
>I've gone on so long long that I almost forgot my intended comments
>about the zoonotic potential of Pseudomonas. I'll just say that as long
>as you are healthy and practice good hygiene and eat a balanced diet you
>are probably unlikely to catch it. Actually you already harbor this
>particular species of bacteria which in addition to being obiquitious
>everywhere on planet Earth lives on and inside just about everyone of
>us.
>
>Jeff
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/"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily
/ reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes
/ Association"
/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association
/ nanfa-in-aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
/ subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to
/ nanfa-request-in-aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
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/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org