RE: NANFA-- Antibiotics & a little survey at the end?

Crail, Todd (tcrail_at_northshores.com)
Tue, 12 Nov 2002 20:47:24 -0500

{naturopathic medicine vs. "standard" methods} Yes, very much so, and I seriously doubt the steadfast in either camp are going to make believers out of the other lol. I chuckled to myself on the way home wondering where this would go next. I think we've hit the agreement to disagree, but just a *few* final thoughts, please add your own :)

A primer in all things Farmer: My experience has been mostly freshwater. I've kept aquaria since I was nine back and forth between tropicals and natives, went on furlough during the college years while being innundated with biology on paper, started again as a graduate bachelor, went full bore into natives (200 gallons total), went FULL bore into a shop (3500 gallons, ~2000 fresh, ~1500 marine), decided that was rough to run, sell and support the customer base by yourself, came home to two years purgatory around 250 marine, 55 fresh and now settling into a very comfortable (my wife and me :) 180 gallons in 3 systems of freshwater. I've seen and learned quite I bit. You could say that I went the journey of the prodigal son, partied with the shallow and then ate with the swine... and then came running back home to Poppa Nativetank ;)

And thru all that I was reading reading reading, and I'm quite comfortable with tearing out the diesase section of any of the two shelves of fish books I've collected lol With certainty, I will be the first to say that a count of gallonage or library isn't a measure of one's bredth of knowledge. I've just stated this as saying "well I've been around that block" :)

And with all those gallons and time, I couldn't tell you without finding one of those ripped out chapters what the heck bacterial hemorrhagic septicima is. Sounds nasty. I usually go with the succinct "sick" or "dead" but I don't usually run across those frequently, nor have I in quite some time. However, I do look forward to reading your approaches and methodologies in the next AC, and will more than likely keep that fresh on the page for anyone who insists on medicating. I may strongly disagree with the proliferation and ease of purchase because I don't care for the abuses that seem more common than proper use... But I also think you hold the keys to what "conscientious use" entails. Maybe some day I'll even come whining to you about my own prized specimen. ;)

You know... now that I've gone bantering about what I've done... We did this sometimes on the marine bulletin boards and mail lists, and it really created a warm homey community feeling. Since we've already had one day of proliferant email... Why not two. What's everyone else's fish story? :)

If you are all up for it, I'll collect the "bios" in a database and then we can put them up on the website this winter... Of course, you can insist that not happen for your particular story... But maybe that would be fun? I think we'll all be amazed and dazzled at the breadth of experience in this group. And I've yet to meet an aquarist who didn't want to talk about their tanks, so don't bother acting shy ;)

Todd


-----Original Message-----
From: Irate Mormon
Sent: Tue 11/12/2002 4:40 PM
To: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
Cc:
Subject: RE: NANFA-- Antibiotics


Well, I guess it's kind of like naturopathic medicine vs. "standard" methods. Each camp has its adherents. When I was a baby
aquarist I used Innes' methods for everything, and they worked quite well. Now I use antibiotics WHERE INDICATED because they're
effective (I've never suffered any of those negative effects you mention), easy to use, and readily available. Ironically, I prefer NOT to
buy OTC fish medicine because of the cost - I have a good relationship with my vet and I can get prescription medicine more cheaply.
All I have to do is ask. Used to be you could pick up quinine or merthiolate almost anywhere - nowadays it's a different proposition.
Or silver nitrate? I'll stick with my antibiotics. While it is not widely harped upon these days, I'll repeat my claim that bacteria can
develop a tolerance for "alternative" medicines as well as modern ones. It just stands to reason.

I am wondering if your experiences are primarily related to the marine hobby. If so, then that would go a long way towards expalining
your position. Assorted maladies are _particularly_ indicative of environmental problems in marines. But you can correct the cause
and STILL have to deal with the disease. How do you treat, for example, bacterial hemorrhagic septicemia in a prized specimen? A
dip in malachite green?

I am also wondering about the origin of this "resistant strain" of fish TB whereof Mr. Huntley spoke. I know a lot of stuff has been
circulated on the net about it, but really, is there any documented factual basis for claims that this is a result of aquarium use of
antibiotics? Other than a bunch of folks talking, I mean.

On 12 Nov 2002 at 14:54, Crail, Todd wrote:

> Now let's not throw the baby out with the water change Martin ;)
>
> The practicle alternative is that I have *never* found it *necessary*
> to use broad spectrum or gram specific antibiotics in *any* of my
> aquaria pursuits, *any* of my customer's aquaria pursuits, *any* of
> the people I've advised online's aquaria pursuits. In fact, things
> more frequently became worse (read: animals actually were harmed in
> the creation of this event) when they didn't listen to my arguments
> and did whatever they wanted which usually, didn't involve a separate
> container to do a dip in because they'd ignored everything I said.
> And then who came back whimpering?
>
> I'm not questioning anyone's methods specifically. All I'm getting at
> is we ought to thoughtfully consider what we're doing with this stuff,
> and that I've found them to not be necessary in our aquariums.
> Plainly put, *I just don't think they need to be on the shelf*.
> Remember all that dialogue I presented yesterday about correcting the
> problems before worrying yourself about the symptoms? :)
>
> And I wasn't talking about just fish getting affected upon watershed
> contamination, but that point I think has been lost in the fact that
> this is, afterall, a fish list. But you might take heart in reading
> Mr. Huntley's human account :)

Prost,

Martin
Jackson, MS
--
Life's a fish and then you fry.
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/ nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word
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/ nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to
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/ For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org