Re: NANFA-- Bluenose shiner news [off topic]

Steffen Hellner (steffen_at_hellner.biz)
Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:51:21 +0200

Steffen

> Von: anutej_at_loxinfo.co.th
> Antworten an: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
> Datum: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 18:11:39 +0700
> An: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
> Betreff: Re: NANFA-- Bluenose shiner news [off topic]
>
> It is interesting that so far there is no splendens found by me
> and friends in Betta sp. mahachai habitat. Some populations of
> wildtype splendens and wild imbellis can tolerate salt since they can
> be found in brackish water habitat too, so something must be going on
> for Mahachai betta to be the only betta species/variety in its
> habitat.
>
> Other interesting point is that local betta arena breeder gurus
> in Mahachai area seem to differentiate Mahachai betta and wildtype
> splendens well. They call Mahachai betta "Pla par" [that means
> "forest fish"] or "luk par" since they are generally found in Jak
> forest [Jak is a type of palm-like plant that like barckish water] or
> "Pla kiew" [= green fish], and call wildtype splendens "Pla rong",
> "Pla tung" or "Luk rong" [[generally mean "ditch or field fish" since
> they are found in canals, ditches, and fields generally further north]
> or "Pla daeng" [= red fish]. They seems not to differentiate between
> the wild imbellis from the south from wildtype splendens from the
> north [they do say that fish from specific location is better at
> fighting than others, but not restrict to species] since they refers
> to both as "Pla daeng". They seem to use this knowledge to cross
> Mahachai [Pla kiew] with wild splendens [Pla daeng] or fighting form
> splendens to create faked Mahachai to fool careless arena opponents
> [using stronger hybrid against real wild Pla kiew ^_^].
> Tony
> anutej_at_loxinfo.co.th
>
> Steffen Hellner wrote:
>>
>> I agree to your arguments. But the sp. Mahachai may be a tank bred hybrid
>> form and then released. From this it is stable genetically (as stable as
>> genetics can be - homocygotic to the edge of 99%). Genetic research will
>> show in the nearer future.
>>
>> You are surely right with the wild type of splendens. I have a "wild" strain
>> but it looks as it is not pure, too much color in it but stable phenotype
>> over more than 10 years now. Not really aggressive, rather small and slender
>> (depends much on nutrition), not too prolific. But a true wild one is hard
>> to find and even more to get at hands.
>>
>> Steffen
>>
>>> Von: anutej_at_loxinfo.co.th
>>> Antworten an: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
>>> Datum: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 05:45:16 +0700
>>> An: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
>>> Betreff: Re: NANFA-- Bluenose shiner news [off topic]
>>>
>>> That is a good one. Nobody knows for 100% sure if Mahachai betta
>>> is indeed a new species or originate from a variety evolved from
>>> release of fighting-form bettas from ancient times. Mahachai area is
>>> a hot spot for betta "arena" for hundred of years and both wild bettas
>>> [wild splendens, wild imbellis and smaragdina] and fighting-form
>>> bettas from all over the country have been brought into the area for
>>> fighting/betting purpose [some would have been released]. Anyway real
>>> Betta sp. Mahachai does exist in the wild and their outward appearance
>>> seems to be consistent throughout their natural range, and they breed
>>> true [F1 and F2 are similar to parents].
>>> The copper variety is developed from crossing Mahachai betta X
>>> domestic splendens and/or imbellis. They are not real wild Mahachai
>>> betta. Also years ago [the practice is still committed] there are
>>> Mahachai X imbellis betta cross sold as "Indo betta" and "real
>>> Mahachai betta" [which it is not real]. These fishes cause lots of
>>> coufusion to what real Beta sp. Mahachai actually is.
>>> Generally wildtype Betta splendens is NOT what is shown in most
>>> books. The big short thing is actually fighting-form splendens
>>> [Plakadmor]developed for fighting purpose. Real wildtype splendens
>>> [Plakadtung, Plakadluktung, Plakadpar] is much more slender and
>>> smaller and the coloration seems to be more or less similar throughout
>>> their range.
>>> I wonder if fighting-form betta is released into Betta
>>> sp.Mahachai habitat will they be fit enough to survive and spawn with
>>> Betta sp. Mahachai in such freechoice situation. Channa striata and
>>> Channa gachua do live in Mahachai betta's home and would be happy to
>>> deal with short, fat stuff that is released there.
>>> BTW if a fish is originated from natural hybrid of a few species
>>> and evolves over time in the wild till the phenotype is fixed
>>> [descendants's appearances are more or less uniform] in the wild
>>> should it be regarded as a morph, variety or species?
>>>
>>> Tony
>>> anutej_at_loxinfo.co.th
>>>
>>>
>>> Steffen Hellner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Do you speak of the dubious Betta sp. Mahachai? I have had them, they for
>>>> me
>>>> look like a hybride of imbellis x splendens x smaragdina. The Thais are
>>>> very
>>>> good in mixing these species and build up viable strains, e.g. the very
>>>> hard
>>>> fighters or the copper-colored. And they are as good in setting those
>>>> strains free. But maybe I am wrong and it is a valid species. Time will
>>>> show.
>>>>
>>>> Steffen
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