NANFA-L-- My apaologies to change the topic!

Steffen Hellner (steffen-in-hellner.biz)
Thu, 11 May 2006 00:35:03 +0200

Dear members of NANFA mailing list,

from a friend I received notice that in this mailing list recently my name
was mentioned in a negative manner, discriminating me as a plunderer of wild
fish for commercial interest. I didn4t follow this list for quite some time
because I had to recognize that certain people don4t like foreigners to
collect fish in the USA and - even worse - possibly breeding them. It was
all about the Pteronotropis hubbsi, and welaka which I liked to get for
breeding attempts.

As I didn4t find archives for 2006 I cannot proof right or wrong what was
colportated to me. However, putting me into the commercial corner or that I
was or am plundering nature is more than utter nonsense, it is disgusting!
I am aware there are people who are jealous upon my breeding successes
particularly with killifish, my work in books, talks, magazines, the species
named after me in honor of my fieldwork (keep belted, there is a third
"hellneri" on the way), the new species I discovered or whatever. Can4t
change this.
But I can proof that all my collecting in the tropics or neotropics was
legal, and under license of the appropriate authorities of the respective
countries. Even last year when I was guest-in-the Northwest Killies in
Portland, OR, all fishes I brought in and took out were checked and approved
by F&W. So what, ladies and gentlemen?

Many of you know that many people, and for sure as well members of this
group, are violating federal or state laws over and over again when being
out for collecting. Mostly unintentional, sometimes without doubt by knowing
what the faults are. Or does everybody of you know all legislation for all
states you collect fish in? Must be more than a lawyer. Even people who
actively want to keep to any regulations are trapped by the constant change
and additional amendments in several states. Even FWS and customs sometimes
are not always up to date. Why are so many species endangered, particularly
by introduction of exotic or competitive native species: Tigersalamanders
throughout the USA, Gambusia elsewhere, snakeheads, catfish, Florida is full
of everything ever offered in the pet trade. There are species sent across
the USA which are prohibited to possess in certain states. Hardly anybody
cares for. Many species are illegal to keep or even import into e.g. Oregon,
and California, for example the Axolotl, snakeheads and others. Want to
check some public trade sites to proof reality?

It is easy, but not really friendly, to publically accuse people off line
for things they never did or will ever do. I never have plundered any site
where I collected. In most cases there are only a few fish of a seeked
species to be found. If many, then a group of 50 out of 1000 is not
plundering, or is it? Then many of you must be ashamed for the thousands of
NANF collected every year in the wild for the only purpose to keep them in a
tank without even attempting to breed them. I breed ALL of my fish, not only
killis but as well SRBD with excellent success.
I DON`T NEED TO PLUNDER AS I CAN BREED FISH!
And I am convinced to the bones that I alone have already bred more fish
than those people who try to discredit me all together will ever breed in
their life. So better try breeding simple fish before you fantasize about
hubbsi or welaka.

And regarding "commercialism": breeding fish not only takes time but
resources. And if one has nothing to change I will sell my fish, of course.
Anybody here ever payed 10.000 bucks for a collecting trip to Brazil or
Gaboon? No? And after donated first ever imported and bred fish to friends
or clubs? No? Well then, collecting fish for nill in front of your door
instead of buying in a petshop is not commercialism. Yap! Including all
honorars for books, articles, photos, talks or sold fish, I have spent way
more than the prize of a good Merc for my fish hobby over the years. Maybe
deficit spending works for states but without doubt not for private persons.

My apologies to all honest people in this mailing list for my clear words.
But I hope you will understand that I can not keep quiet if such statements
are made in the public.

sincerely,

Steffen Hellner

Am 10.05.2006 23:23 Uhr schrieb "matt ashton" unter
<ashtonmj2003-in-yahoo.com>:

> Sorry to the list for that my yahoo mail acts crazy sometimes and sends out
> messages-in-will. John, I will email you or get in contact with you tonight
> or tomorrow. I specifically want to talk to you about the TWRA conversation
> and to see if you may be interested in volunteering to work with the topminnow
> projects here.
>
> matt ashton <ashtonmj2003-in-yahoo.com> wrote: This is really really long and I
> am headed out the door but I will write a full comment about this tonight.
> There is alot I can clarify straight from the horses mouth about the details
> of the barrens topminnow. I also need to talk to you about your conversation
> with the TWRA official because they are DEAD wrong amongst other things. I
> also wanted to get in touch with you about
>
> "J. C." wrote: Warning going to be long.
>
> What bothers me is the wild caught and endangered
> status of this fish.
>
> If someone was to collect an endangered species
> legally and get it to reproduce in captivity the
> offspring should be spread to others who could
> reproduce them. You all know the old rule of not
> putting all your eggs in one basket. This is a good
> reason to spread the fish to others. A good example is
> the Barrens topminnow. It is very endangered and all
> atemps-in-restocking has not been successful. The
> problem is an indrouced specie(mosquetoe fish). My
> understanding is the breed very well in captivity to
> the point that few fish are raised from the ammount of
> eggs they produce. Why not allow an agency like the
> AKA to distibute them to people who breed these type
> of fish to insure a better chance of them being
> around.
>
> But the sturgeon even if paired properly would be
> very hard if not impossible to reproduce in captivity
> by a hobbiest due to size. The killies mentioned above
> are small and known to breed easy in captivity. I know
> of fish that can be released and do good when grown
> properly in captivity.
>
> So I see a bad and good side to letting hobbiest in
> on the production. I know that the fish need to be
> aquired legally and not me going and collecting them
> from the wild thinking I am doing some good. I know
> the program for the Barrens topminnow has several
> populations and has split them up so they can prevent
> inbreeding. I am limited on space but I know I could
> maintain and produce a single line of them. If you
> spread out the lines to several people and a disaster
> hit the breeding facility all would not be lost.
>
> I also know about genetic drift and even fish with
> the same genetics showing different phenotypes when
> grown in different inviroments. The drift problem is
> solved by larger numbers of breeders. The phenotype
> problem though is harder to address but is only a
> problem is will releasing the new phenotype which may
> not survive well in the wild enviroment. I currently
> have a fish either showing some recessive trait or a
> genetic drift in one of my species of killifish. I
> like the new color and plan on seperating him and
> giving him a few females and see if I can line breed
> the color. But that is for aquarium use and not
> releasing them.
>
> I think aquabid needs some requirements for
> protecting itself even more from such stupid things
> like this sturgeon. I know my endangered killifish
> specie was collected before the habitat was destroyed.
> I would hate to see that I could not see eggs of this
> specie on aquabid. But I would take the missing of a
> few sales to protect the site and its future if it
> would not allow any endanger species.
>
> Matt and all,
>
> I asked the local game wardens about collecting
> minnows for aquarium use, for fishing, and selling.
> They were dumb founded by my questions. I got way to
> amny I do not know and they finally gave me a number
> to call. The number was to Crossville TN office. To
> follow are some of the things I found out according to
> the person I talked to. I can legally collect the
> barren topminnow and use it as bait for fishing with a
> regular fishing license. The reason given was to few
> of the endangered species get collected by a person
> collecting a few minnows to fish with that it outways
> the expense of trying to police this action and train
> each person what is and what is not endangered. For
> home aquarium use it is illegal to collect this fish
> knowingly. But if you collected it without knowledge
> for personal use said that it would be unlikely cause
> charges to be filed. But if you get a lincense to sell
> minnows you are to train yourself as to which species
> can be collected and sold as bait fish. There is no
> way of selling the species which are legal to have in
> aquariums in the state of TN. But you can give the
> fish away to people in states the fish are allowed.
> The loop hole is if I collect a legal to have in
> aquarium specie and raise offspring from them the
> offspring are legal to be sold on this end but some
> states will not allow these species due to fear of
> them getting released and mixing with the local
> species simular to them and spreading disease.
>
> What I found out that really got me upset is a
> fisherman can catch and use this endangered fish for
> bait. But according to the person I talked to boiled
> down to money and man power vs. the impact and chance
> of the endangered species getting caught.
>
> I am sure money is the seller on aquabids main
> interest. Those of us on this list are enviroment
> friendly for the most part or we would just keep
> tropical fish instead. I know many of you rather
> snorkel and see the fish in their native waters as
> well. Just more proof of our conservationist ways.
>
> BTW I have not caught another minnow like the one I
> had over a year ago that I thought maybe the Barren
> Topmiinow. I have netted the area couple times last
> year. I hope to take a picture if I ever catch another
> fish like that for better id as the state said they
> would be interested in knowing of another location.
>
> --- Bruce Stallsmith wrote:
>
>>> Does anyone have a good explanation for the
>> behavior that has piqued
>>> Dustin's curiosity below? What is it about the
>> attempted sale of an
>>> individual Chinese sturgeon that has us so upset?
>> If I had attempted to
>>> sell an endangered Mexican goodeid, would the
>> reaction have been the
>>> same? Why or why not?
>>
>
>
> John Cox of Cumberland Killifish
> Honey Robber beekeeping and removal services
>
> Please join A Fishy World my new email group all
> about fish-in-AFishyWorld-subscribe-in-yahoogroups.com
> http://mail.yahoo.com
> /-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> / This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes
> / Association (NANFA). Comments made on this list do not necessarily
> / reflect the beliefs or goals of NANFA. For more information about NANFA,
> / visit http://www.nanfa.org Please make sure all posts to nanfa-l are
> / consistent with the guidelines as per
> / http://www.nanfa.org/guidelines.shtml To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get
> / help, visit the NANFA email list home page and archive at
> / http://www.nanfa.org/email.shtml
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
> starting-in-1"/min.
> /-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> / This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes
> / Association (NANFA). Comments made on this list do not necessarily
> / reflect the beliefs or goals of NANFA. For more information about NANFA,
> / visit http://www.nanfa.org Please make sure all posts to nanfa-l are
> / consistent with the guidelines as per
> / http://www.nanfa.org/guidelines.shtml To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get
> / help, visit the NANFA email list home page and archive at
> / http://www.nanfa.org/email.shtml
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Blab-away for as little as 1"/min. Make PC-to-Phone Calls using Yahoo!
> Messenger with Voice.
> /-----------------------------------------------------------------------
> / This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes
> / Association (NANFA). Comments made on this list do not necessarily
> / reflect the beliefs or goals of NANFA. For more information about NANFA,
> / visit http://www.nanfa.org Please make sure all posts to nanfa-l are
> / consistent with the guidelines as per
> / http://www.nanfa.org/guidelines.shtml To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get
> / help, visit the NANFA email list home page and archive at
> / http://www.nanfa.org/email.shtml
/-----------------------------------------------------------------------
/ This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes
/ Association (NANFA). Comments made on this list do not necessarily
/ reflect the beliefs or goals of NANFA. For more information about NANFA,
/ visit http://www.nanfa.org Please make sure all posts to nanfa-l are
/ consistent with the guidelines as per
/ http://www.nanfa.org/guidelines.shtml To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get
/ help, visit the NANFA email list home page and archive at
/ http://www.nanfa.org/email.shtml