That's why I'm undiscouraged from continuing to type my angle on this,
because I can only hope that people out there are willing to _get_ to 60
miles per hour. It's my feeling they'll only stand to benefit from it, if I
can write it in a way that allows people to understand it. I don't think
I've been successful at this yet... But I have no way to measure it. So...
Really, it'd be much more simple if I just enjoyed my 98% problem free
aquaria. But you know... I like to stir stuff up ;)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Zarlinga" <njz_at_clevelandmetroparks.com>
To: <nanfa_at_aquaria.net>
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2004 2:31 PM
Subject: RE: NANFA-- parasite removal
> Todd, although I tend to agree with you on most of your thinkings, from my
> experiences, I would have to disagree with you on a number of points that
> you bring up here. First of all, I agree with you totally that by
releiving
> system stress, we can do a lot to reduce the chances that our animals
> acquire some kind of 'bug'. I agree that 'natural systems' lend themselves
> to a stability factor which encourages fish health and therefore enables
> that fish to fight off critters that want to parasitize it. I would
> certainly agree with you in saying that even a 'sterile' system is not
truly
> sterile, and that there are little beasties hiding out waiting for the
> opportune time to jump on. However we are still dealing with these
animals
> in a closed system and if one fish is weakened some how (they all are at
> some point), they provide a portal for the bugs to take hold of that fish,
> reproduce in incredible numbers, therefore *possibly* making it easier to
> overrun the rest of the population since it is indeed a closed system.
> While I would also agree with you that you do find fish in the wild that
are
> diseased, the point that I was trying to make is that not necessarily all
> the fish in the vicinity are going to be subjected to overwelming numbers
of
> bugs just because of the space and volume factor. Obviously in an
aquarium,
> there is nowhere for the bugs to go and it is easier for them to find a
> host. I do not agree with you that 98% of fish can deal with parasites as
> you suggested. Although it may not be the bugs themselves that actually
> kill the fish, the bugs do reduce the immune system and clog gills, etc.,
> all effects of the overrun population. I know that if I have a stable
> system, and one that I can not get fish from easily, I would not trust any
> new fish coming into my system unless I had them in a separate tank to
fish
> see how they do in a number of aspects before they go into the main
display
> tank. And yes, I would agree that there are not many hobbyists with the
> resources to scrape and key out bugs before you treat. (Hell, I don't
even
> do it myself and I do have the resources!) That was more of an ideal
> situation and I hoped that you would let me slide with that. And I would
> agree that you can never remove all the potentials of a disease, even in a
> quarantine system. The quarantine, in my opinion, is simply a way to find
> out what is going on with the fish and how it is acting. I am not a true
> proponent of prophylactic medications, although in some fish species I
> certainly have learned that it is beneficial. So all in all, I think that
we
> are saying the same thing, remove as much stress from they system as far
as
> we can tell, and your fish will do the rest. However I guess I place more
> emphasis on knocking down a bug flare up with an appropriate medication,
and
> trying to determine what that flare up will be by putting the animal in
> quarantine first, or when it is not showing signs of improvement when it
is
> in the exhibit tank. I have not had nearly the same number of
naturopathic
> experiences that you have had regarding fish healing themselves so
> effectively. But, if it works, then it is definetly better than treating
> with some kind of chemical. I just think that to get to your stage, you
> have to experience many of the falls first to know what is what. I don't
> think that one can just start at 60mph since one doesn't know what to look
> for.
>
> Nick Zarlinga
> Aquarium Biologist
> Cleveland Metroparks Zoo
> 216.661.6500 ext 4485
>
>
> ><)> -----Original Message-----
> ><)> From: owner-nanfa_at_aquaria.net
> ><)> On Behalf
> ><)> Of Todd Crail
> ><)> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 11:16 AM
> ><)> To: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
> ><)> Subject: Re: NANFA-- parasite removal
> ><)>
> ><)>
> ><)> This, of course, has gotten much more
> ><)> philisophical than practical :)
> ><)>
> ><)> I think the biggest problem is the standard, and
> ><)> even the advanced home
> ><)> aquarists don't have the resources to really
> ><)> accurately identify (or even
> ><)> ballpark) what it is they're dealing with, and in
> ><)> such a way, don't have any
> ><)> way to accurately identify what treatment to run.
> ><)> _Especially_ if they have
> ><)> to do it with every animal that crosses their
> ><)> path! I think we all agree
> ><)> that treatment "shots in the dark" are a bad idea
> ><)> for a variety of reasons.
> ><)> Especially in the case of antibiotics where
> ><)> someone just dumps a drug at a
> ><)> problem and there's no cause and effect. They get
> ><)> a cycled tank becuase the
> ><)> biological got wiped out, dead fish because they
> ><)> also had to deal with
> ><)> ammonia on
> ><)> top of their current issues, and maybe stopped the
> ><)> bacteria, but more likely
> ><)> didn't and only made a more resistant strain, etc...
> ><)>
> ><)> I think what we need to do is approach it as
> ><)> "parasitism", which most people
> ><)> in the aquarium hobby and even professionals call
> ><)> "disease", and I think
> ><)> that's a misnomer. "General stress" is more
> ><)> inline with the disease concept
> ><)> than the parasites are... That is to say, I don't
> ><)> know of any fish that's
> ><)> ever conclusively died from an ich manifestation,
> ><)> but I do know a lot of
> ><)> adult ich that starved to death when they lost
> ><)> their host to stress. A
> ><)> different way of thinking :) And as a general
> ><)> rule, 98% of the cases deal
> ><)> just fine with their parasitism if they're not
> ><)> receiving additional stress
> ><)> created by their keepers.
> ><)>
> ><)> This is not to say that an organism will _not_ be
> ><)> over run with parasites...
> ><)> But if we scale back our terms and definitions to
> ><)> limit the amount of stress
> ><)> our animals receive from system issues and _then_
> ><)> determine if they're truly
> ><)> being overrun by parasites (as is I feel the case
> ><)> with my particular
> ><)> orangespot, where he came in like this) to the
> ><)> point where health has been
> ><)> compromised. Then I think it's appropriate to
> ><)> seek identification and then
> ><)> the appropriate treatment. At least you have a
> ><)> container around what you're
> ><)> fighting.
> ><)>
> ><)> Why not until then? We don't know what
> ><)> effectively sterilizing our animals
> ><)> without focus does to them (I'll get to this in a
> ><)> moment), and I doubt I'll
> ><)> ever be convinced otherwise. Quarantine is a
> ><)> good way to screen out the
> ><)> weak, wether their former parasites are slamming
> ><)> them, or wether their new
> ><)> parasites after their "pickling" are slamming
> ><)> them, before they go into a
> ><)> main system. So that is perhaps the best way to
> ><)> approach the problem if you
> ><)> feel it's necessary to screen... And it is in a
> ><)> lot of cases where it's
> ><)> nearly impossible to retrieve an overrun animal
> ><)> (in a large reef, large
> ><)> exhibit, etc).
> ><)>
> ><)> However, you'll be hard pressed to convince me
> ><)> that you've _truly_ removed
> ><)> all potentials in quarantine. I often wonder if
> ><)> things like ich lie dormant
> ><)> in the slime coat of fish, but are triggered into
> ><)> reproduction by some
> ><)> chemical or hormone that is released when a fish
> ><)> is stressed, or when the
> ><)> slime coat weakens. I'm in a debate with myself
> ><)> if they're always there.
> ><)> Tanks that have been fine for months (outside the
> ><)> "life cycle" of a
> ><)> particular parasite) without new additions or any
> ><)> changes besides neglect, a
> ><)> heater burning up, etc etc still break out in ich!
> ><)>
> ><)> Basically, I don't buy the parasite soup deal and
> ><)> extra water volume
> ><)> flushing things away. I think that the extra
> ><)> critters come with the
> ><)> territory, it just looks more awful and ominous at
> ><)> home because the _stress_
> ><)> is much more focused and everyone gets exposed to
> ><)> both the stress and the
> ><)> mainfestations. I have caught wild fish wasting,
> ><)> most likely from
> ><)> gastrointestinal parasites, or super males that
> ><)> were weakened from months of
> ><)> being dominant instead of healthy, that were
> ><)> covered in ich and fungus and
> ><)> the things we see graphically in an aquarium where
> ><)> the whole system is
> ><)> stressed.
> ><)>
> ><)> And back to that thing I was gonna get to...
> ><)> Again, we don't know what kind
> ><)> of effect effectively sterilizing an animal will
> ><)> have, positive or negative.
> ><)> In fact, I think progress will only be made in
> ><)> "war against germs" when we
> ><)> start to get comfortable that things need to be
> ><)> balanced, instead of
> ><)> sterile. My mom raised me as sterile as bleach,
> ><)> and now I'm allergic to
> ><)> everything and catch a cold at the drop of a
> ><)> hat... Whereas my best friend
> ><)> in high school and college was always that crud
> ><)> crusted kid, they always had
> ><)> food left on their dishes after running the
> ><)> dishwasher (disgusting!), and
> ><)> everything my mother prevented me from being (go
> ><)> figure I'm a crud crusted
> ><)> adult ;) RARELY gets sick.
> ><)>
> ><)> But more on target... Let's talk about something I
> ><)> had to live through that
> ><)> is a definate parallel and may offer itself as an
> ><)> interesting anecdote to
> ><)> our discussion. In 2000 I had a naaaaasty
> ><)> infection in my salivary glands
> ><)> (Sialadenitis). They would clog, get fetid, and
> ><)> oh my did it hurt. So I do
> ><)> what anyone would do... I go to the doctor. And
> ><)> what does the doctor do?
> ><)> He wants to sterilize it, like any doctor would.
> ><)> So they put me on some
> ><)> insane antibiotic (this ain't no Z pack babe-ee)
> ><)> for a month long treatment
> ><)> so there's enough build up in a very tough place
> ><)> to deliver a antibiotic
> ><)> load.
> ><)>
> ><)> Did it work? For about a month. Then it was
> ><)> back. What else was there
> ><)> then? Because I had a wide open range of
> ><)> uncolonized territory in my guts
> ><)> now because beneficial organisms were _also_
> ><)> gone... A gastrointestinal
> ><)> yeast infection that took two years to shake (and
> ><)> is moooost unpleasant),
> ><)> severe irritative bowel syndrome, constipation,
> ><)> and the whole nine. My gut
> ><)> problems left me stressed and wide open to the
> ><)> "cold of the week", and
> ><)> pushed me into a severe depression because I
> ><)> couldn't seem to get better.
> ><)> The worst of it lasted for nearly a year.
> ><)>
> ><)> But I thought we were treating my mouth huh?
> ><)>
> ><)> In the meantime, while fighting like mad with my
> ><)> colds, sore throats and
> ><)> stuff, I found an interesting relief for my
> ><)> Sialadenitis... I was using the
> ><)> "not conclusively proven to do anything, but I
> ><)> feel better when I take it"
> ><)> thing of Vitamin C. I was sucking on chewables to
> ><)> get some relief for my
> ><)> throat. And wouldn't you know it... The
> ><)> _tartness_ of the Vitamin C helped
> ><)> to purge my salivary glands. Sourball candies and
> ><)> lemon juice works too.
> ><)> Go figure.
> ><)>
> ><)> What I think we need to do is find the "vitamin c"
> ><)> before we go and get
> ><)> chemicals involved. :) I doubt that fish are any
> ><)> different, and we don't
> ><)> know which critters are beneficial at certain
> ><)> levels and which are not.
> ><)> It's not like life has evolved in a sterile
> ><)> environment, although we seem to
> ><)> be trying our damnedist to make it that way (and
> ><)> miserable failing).
> ><)>
> ><)> And yes, this is something I consider with the
> ><)> more whole systems that I
> ><)> seem to be particular to lately. I would say that
> ><)> more organisms will have
> ><)> the ability to complete life cycles as the systems
> ><)> get larger and more
> ><)> biodiverse. But what you have to remember is...
> ><)> Parasites have parasites
> ><)> too. Maybe if we stopped trying to keep sterile
> ><)> systems, we'd also have in
> ><)> place stop gap organisms that keep everyone else
> ><)> in check too?
> ><)>
> ><)> Some food for thought...
> ><)> Todd
> ><)>
> ><)> ----- Original Message -----
> ><)> From: "Nick Zarlinga" <njz_at_clevelandmetroparks.com>
> ><)> To: <nanfa_at_aquaria.net>
> ><)> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 7:14 AM
> ><)> Subject: RE: NANFA-- parasite removal
> ><)>
> ><)>
> ><)> > Generally speaking I would agree with you,
> ><)> however we are sort of creating
> ><)> a
> ><)> > situation where our fish are essentially being
> ><)> kept alive in a parasite
> ><)> > soup. In the wild, the bugs can scatter with
> ><)> currents etc, and there is
> ><)> > usually an unlimited supply of new water to
> ><)> dilute the concentration of
> ><)> bugs
> ><)> > to fish. In the aquarium, we are creating a
> ><)> condition where the bugs can
> ><)> not
> ><)> > disperse, therefore making it easier to find a
> ><)> host. We are giving the
> ><)> > parasite just what it wants, lots of chances to
> ><)> attach in a very small
> ><)> > amount of space. So, although there are
> ><)> stressors that can cause an
> ><)> > outbreak, they are sort of given the advantage
> ><)> by us, unintentionally.
> ><)> That
> ><)> > is why in a perfect world, we quarantine any and
> ><)> all new animals before
> ><)> they
> ><)> > go into our "exhibit" tanks. If the fish has
> ><)> some kind of "disease", we
> ><)> > take a swab, identify it under a scope, then
> ><)> treat accordingly to
> ><)> erradicate
> ><)> > it first. Of course, this is my idealism coming
> ><)> though again ;)
> ><)> >
> ><)> > Nick Zarlinga
> ><)> > Aquarium Biologist
> ><)> > Cleveland Metroparks Zoo
> ><)> > 216.661.6500 ext 4485
> ><)> >
> ><)> >
> ><)> > ><)> -----Original Message-----
> ><)> > ><)> From: owner-nanfa_at_aquaria.net
> ><)> > ><)> On Behalf
> ><)> > ><)> Of Todd Crail
> ><)> > ><)> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 9:37 PM
> ><)> > ><)> To: nanfa_at_aquaria.net
> ><)> > ><)> Subject: Re: NANFA-- parasite removal
> ><)> > ><)>
> ><)> > ><)>
> ><)> > ><)> I'd also look into what system stress had
> ><)> > ><)> compromised formerly "stable" fish
> ><)> > ><)> to take a beating from a recently introduced
> ><)> > ><)> external parasite they would
> ><)> > ><)> normally slime right off. While
> ><)> I'm beginning to
> ><)> > ><)> change my view on
> ><)> > ><)> gastrointestinal parasites and what
> ><)> role they play
> ><)> > ><)> in fish health...
> ><)> > ><)> External parasites on everybody has
> ><)> always proven
> ><)> > ><)> there's a system problem
> ><)> > ><)> which I've found is best solved by
> ><)> correction.
> ><)> > ><)> Might want to check into
> ><)> > ><)> that too. pH? Nitrate? Stray
> ><)> Volts? Low Dissolved
> ><)> > ><)> O2/High organic content?
> ><)> > ><)>
> ><)> ---------------------------
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> ><)> list do not necessarily
> ><)> / reflect the beliefs or goals of the North
> ><)> American Native Fishes
> ><)> / Association"
> ><)> / This is the discussion list of the North
> ><)> American Native Fishes Association
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> ><)> get help, send the word
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> ><)> page, http://www.nanfa.org
-- > /"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily > / reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes > / Association" > / This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association > / nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word > / subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to > / nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to > / nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead. > / For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org /----------------------------------------------------------------------------- /"Unless stated otherwise, comments made on this list do not necessarily / reflect the beliefs or goals of the North American Native Fishes / Association" / This is the discussion list of the North American Native Fishes Association / nanfa_at_aquaria.net. To subscribe, unsubscribe, or get help, send the word / subscribe, unsubscribe, or help in the body (not subject) of an email to / nanfa-request_at_aquaria.net. For a digest version, send the command to / nanfa-digest-request_at_aquaria.net instead. / For more information about NANFA, visit our web page, http://www.nanfa.org